WR1 Mod Query

[Megaman]

Hi Guys,

Okay just a quick query after doing a lot of digging on the forums. From what I can see the "easy" mods to do before you are talking major surgery as I call it are as follows:

1) Induction kit / cold air induction kit / aps
2) 3" downpipe and 3" exhaust system with decat
3) New spark plugs
4) ECUTek Remap

From what I can see this little lot boosts the power up to around 350-360bhp mark. I spoke to RCM about these mods and they want a nice big £2,500 notes for it. I noticed someone quoted £1,000 - £1,500 for a similar setup so was wondering where they were getting their kit from?!?

I also am looking for some none-salesman oriented advice with regards to these mods as follows:

1) Induction Kits
I have found all sorts from K&N Typhoon systems claiming +11BHP through to these large cone style RCM systems that sit to the left of the engine. The CAIS systems seem to be smaller cone based systems which are directed out of the way so not to suffer from the dreaded heat soak from the engine. Ive also found several panel filters which in my experience do bugger all to help performance...

Just wondering which way people have gone with these and what you guys would recommend from your own experiences for helping the engine to breathe and to give a bit more torque from the engine. I am not interested in making more noise particularly and if given a choice I would choose power over noise. I do however know from past experience that induction kits which arent enclosed all tend to make the engine sound far revier.

2) I am looking for the best exhaust solution to give me maximum power, minimum noise and to still be legal. RCM suggested a full 3" system with silencer but that was near enough 1,000 notes before fitting when he had finished adding fitting kits etc to the equation. I like the current note of the engine and can bare it on long journeys. I dont want to make the same mistake as I did with my Focus and have an exhaust system that drones at a certain rev level so much so that it becomes unbarable on 2-3hr journies.

Any suggestions/help on this?

would getting a decat fitted to current exhaust system keep sound bareable whilst giving enough power benefit to get up to the 360bhp mark?

Finally with the mods discussed above my aim is to get more torque all around the rev range and to make it a much more drivable car. I do not want to compromise on reliability or the ability to take it for 5-10 laps on a track. If these mods are going to make the engine go bang under heavy load or damage some internal components then id rather know now before it gets on the track.

Once again thanks for the good advice and support here guys, and apologoies if it seems like just another "what are the best mods for the WR1" style thread.

Cheers

Mega

[WR 1mposter]

1) Induction kit / cold air induction kit / aps
2) 3" downpipe and 3" exhaust system with decat
3) New spark plugs
4) ECUTek Remap

From what I can see this little lot boosts the power up to around 350-360bhp mark.

Those mods will see you at a more realistic 340.
When we first done ours we had the above list and got just over 340.

RCM are quality end off but you pay heavily for that.
there are others around if the price is the issue

[Megaman]

ah right - so if they are so "quality" why are they the ones telling me id get 360bhp out of those mods

Nah seriously though if thats the only option then fine but I know in the past ive always been able to shop around for pretty much the same thing from a number of suppliers.

Cheers

Mega

[WR 1mposter]

ah right - so if they are so "quality" why are they the ones telling me id get 360bhp out of those mods

Nah seriously though if thats the only option then fine but I know in the past ive always been able to shop around for pretty much the same thing from a number of suppliers.

Cheers

Mega

That is unlike RCM they usually underquote, so if you get above your happy.
I'm 99.9% sure you will not get 350/360 with just those mods.

Seeing as you live in yorkshire try "the racing line" in halifax, spike mike like has had his evo done there.

[marky mark]

Agree with pooster, round about 340-350.

Of course, take it to well lane or somewhere like that and you will get 360.

You won't gain anything at this level really with an induction kit, do a search on Scutch's posts as he has just done exactly the same thing.

Just a decat and an Ecutek map will make a big diference in the feel of the car. RCM use Bob Rawle in Swindon who is one of the best ones around. It maybe a shorter trip for you to go to Andy F in Scotland though.

Choose your mapper wisely, it is these that make a difference. It is a custom map done on the road, not a generic or piggy back style add on.

Judging by your posts, you definetly require a system with a resonated centre section, it's these that stop the boominess in the cabin. I'm not sure who does one of these apart from RCM (maybe Hayward and Scott) but everything you buy from RCM is top quality, but with a top quality price.

[Scutch]

Yup, I have the same setup now, mate. Excluding the spark plugs that is.

* Hayward & Scott Afterburner exhaust system with decat
* K&N Typhoon Induction kit with heatshield
* Remapped by Andy Forrest.

The RCM exhaust system was just way too expensive and couldnt be justified. The H&S is superb. It looks fantastic and is pretty damn loud too. The sound deadening in the car certainly works, anyway! Windows down its a whole different ball game!

Andy mapped mine and was very impressed, around 345bhp and 325lbs torque. He wanted the torque to come in sooner but the K&N induction kit restrained him from doing so. Although this did improve the low down torque from standard, the mid-range is now much better. You can certainly feel it pulling when going through the gears and the revs build up.
Andy said if I wanted the boost to come in right away I'd need to change the induction kit to a CAF fitted in the wing or just use the standard airbox, which is good for big power anyway. Then have the car mapped again. I love the noise though, which is why I opted for one

Really pleased anyway.

Costs, like you said, are nowhere near £2,500.

Exhaust system : £650
Induction Kit : £250
Remap : £550 IIRC.

Sorted.

[Megaman]

Thanks for the information guys. I suppose the questions should be what mods do I need to get up to the 360bhp mark then?

Thanks in advance

Mega

[marky mark]

You are really struggling with the standard turbo to do that, unless you use a small amount of methanol.

340/350/360 whatever....when you are talking about a 20bhp spread it's up in the air as different dyno's will show more than that error. It is just not worth thinking about 20 BHP. Dyno's are very good tools for doing a lot of things, but measuring a TRUE horsepower figure is not one of them.

Scutch's figures of XXX/XXX were taken on a delta dash simulation i think, which uses software to monitor ECU data, the way the car accelerates, and some wieght and other figures put in by the operator to calculate horsepower. So thats not really accurate either. It is however a good comparrison against other cars if the operator uses the same stretch of road and the same figures.

Horsepower and torque measurement on RR dyno's is a load of bollox, but non the less we are all very interested in it and band the figures around a lot. (including me)

[Megaman]

Hiya,

Yes I know from taking my old car on several rolling roads - all produced different figures. I take it simply swapping the turbo out isnt an option? we would need to do more strengthening work on the engine etc before doing that...

[Scutch]

You are really struggling with the standard turbo to do that, unless you use a small amount of methanol.

340/350/360 whatever....when you are talking about a 20bhp spread it's up in the air as different dyno's will show more than that error. It is just not worth thinking about 20 BHP. Dyno's are very good tools for doing a lot of things, but measuring a TRUE horsepower figure is not one of them.

Scutch's figures of XXX/XXX were taken on a delta dash simulation i think, which uses software to monitor ECU data, the way the car accelerates, and some wieght and other figures put in by the operator to calculate horsepower. So thats not really accurate either. It is however a good comparrison against other cars if the operator uses the same stretch of road and the same figures.

Horsepower and torque measurement on RR dyno's is a load of bollox, but non the less we are all very interested in it and band the figures around a lot. (including me)

Yeah thats true. I think it was delta dash but Andy says its pretty accurate on the setup he's using and he uses it for his own.
Like has been said many times before regarding different cars, though, the power output means little. Its how the car drives on the road which is the telling factor. Even a remap on a standard car you'll notice the difference. Saying that, the power output does sound good

[Scutch]

Hiya,

Yes I know from taking my old car on several rolling roads - all produced different figures. I take it simply swapping the turbo out isnt an option? we would need to do more strengthening work on the engine etc before doing that...

I think it depends on the turbo. The standard injectors and internals are pretty good on the WR1 for at least 380/400bhp I'd have thought. I'm sure someone could back me up on this, or say I'm talking bollocks again

[marky mark]

Yep, for 360 BHP ish a TD05/06 18G would make a very nice car. OK at this level on standard internals and intercooler.

[Megaman]

with a bigger turbo like the one you suggest does that mean lots more lag or will that meet my requirements of making the car have more torque all around the range and a more driveable car?

[Scutch]

Mark would it not be better going for the TD06 20G turbo or even the one you had on your P1? MD321H?

Would both these units require more engine work to be functional or are they both straight bolt ons too along with the remap?

[Megaman]

Yer hopefully if it wont make the car deffening for long journeys which a simple turbo change shouldnt then it might be the easiest way forward. New turbo's are around 1000-1500 notes i think from what ive seen around - so about the same as induction kit + silenced exhaust...

[Scutch]

http://andyforrestperformance.co.uk/index2.html

Click on Turbochargers on the left hand panel

[marky mark]

Mark would it not be better going for the TD06 20G turbo or even the one you had on your P1? MD321H?

Would both these units require more engine work to be functional or are they both straight bolt ons too along with the remap?

He wants to use it on track potentially. I would not advocate 400 BHP to be used on the track with a standard bottom end. Plus, there is a lot more other things that need to be done to run this power reliably on the road as well. Megaman does not seem to be wanting to go mad at the moment.

His question was specifically how do i get 360 BHP. so i answered. If he asked how do i get 400 i would have answered differently.

I had a RCM GT35 hybrid on my P1, i put RCM's equvalent to the MD321 turbo on WR1 Bro's car...called the RCM 400 rather oddly.

Megaman, 18G is a great little turbo, it will spool no later than your existing VF.

[marky mark]

Yer hopefully if it wont make the car deffening for long journeys which a simple turbo change shouldnt then it might be the easiest way forward. New turbo's are around 1000-1500 notes i think from what ive seen around - so about the same as induction kit + silenced exhaust...

err... the turbo will be required on top of the exhaust and remap....you don't get things for cheap in the Subaru tuning business. It's not a ford FFS!

[Megaman]

It's not a ford FFS!

Nice one mate...

[marky mark]

BTW, injectors will also be required most likely, or you may just get away with it. Not 100% certain how far the standard pink injectors will go on standard fuel pressure.

[Scutch]

BTW, injectors will also be required most likely, or you may just get away with it. Not 100% certain how far the standard pink injectors will go on standard fuel pressure.

Is that for 360bhp with the 18G?

[marky mark]

yep, can't be far off. What did Andy say your IDC was?

I have to admit i'm not quite certain but they have to be getting close.

[Megaman]

So with that turbo mark, I can keep air intake standard - no induction kit needed, but I would need a 3" exhaust system non-decat but special silenced along with spark plugs and a remap ?

Just trying to get a ball park idea for budgets etc...

Could do with a post that lists rough costs and what you can get for it e.g.

Std car + 3" exhaust: 325bhp/£600
+ induction kit: 330bhp/£750
+ turbo1: 350bhp/1500
etc...

im trying to work out the most economical power upgrade to aim for whilst allowing the car to be reliable, not too noisy and to be used at full thrape on a track now and again.

Cheers

[Scutch]

yep, can't be far off. What did Andy say your IDC was?

I have to admit i'm not quite certain but they have to be getting close.

He didnt mention anything about the duty, just said the car was pulling really good figures and did well.

I think my next mod would be an uprated turbo. Once you get the feel for power you want more. Wont be for a while though, as the missus will crush my testicles if I even mention modifications. I just thought the standard injectors would be pretty good for up to 400bhp.

Looking at this : http://andyforrestperformance.co.uk/26032.html

The 550 injectors there seem good for 440bhp. Now I'm thinking the WR1 doesnt use the same ones? I have no idea at all, to be honest!

Sorry to thread hijack, too! But its all along the same lines.

[marky mark]

Megaman -

It is highly unusual to change the turbo without uprating / decatting the exhaust system, and not something i would like to comment on other than the fact that if you choose a 18G yes it will fit on with your standard up pipe, inlet pipe, air box etc..

Your standard airbox set up is very efficient, and will not start to limit the engine until 360 BHP +, so if you mess with it at this relatively low state of tune it really isn't going to give you big increases.

I'm not gonna start talking BHP numbers, as i state above it's all a bit of a mis-noma. So lets say that a straight 3" downpipe with decat and a silenced centre section and remap gives you 340-350 BHP and costs £1600. (This for me gives the best bangs for buck option within your given constraints of reliability, minimal noise, minimal lag,). Then plus or minus as per the options below.

All of this will require a remap, once you change the downpipe you would be well advised...

All prices very approx and off the the top of my head but will not be a mile off. BHP gains or losses are approx, and in some cases arguable .

3" sports cat downpipe (MOT friendly) - minus 5BHP, plus £200

Un-silenced centre section - minus 1 BHP, minus £100, lots more noise in cabin

Uprated panel filter - Plus 1 BHP, plus £50

Traditional Induction kit - Plus 3 BHP, plus £150, lots more noise from under the hood.

Cold air induction kit - Plus 3 BHP, plus £250. These are good but are a bit limited if you want to push the power up around 400 BHP.

TD05 18G turbo, with a good exhaust will probably stick another 20-25 BHP on. £900 If injectors are required (check with your mapper, he will know far better than any internet numptie like me at what point and with what turbo they will start to run out of puff) £250

Injectors will give you no BHP gain, you simply have to put big enough ones in to be able to supply enough fuel, if you don't the mapper will not be able to map it to it's full potential or it will run lean

And most importatly, Choose your Ecutek mapper carefully. I can only personally recommend Bob Rawle as i have use him with my own cars and other peoples cars i have modified on maybe 10 occasions

I have never heard a bad word from anyone that knows there stuff about Andy Forrest, or Paul Blamire from Zen performance regarding Ecutek. I'm sure these 2 will do a great job.

All the others (including GGR) i have heard things from people i respect with a lot of knowledge, about instances that would make me think twice before i would go there.

[Scutch]

I got in touch with Andy regarding a few things, and got this information back :

Hi Neil

Your car is producing better torque than standard, its just that there is even more available with the right set up.

I would recommend the 20G (£895+v) which is a direct bolt on and a fuel pressure regulator (£170+v) to cope with fuel supply.

Ideally an APS cold air kit in addition to the above would allow circa 380bhp and 350lbft of torque, this would still come in even earlier than your existing set up so would benefit your acceleration times.

The remap would be £190+vat as you already have the licence in the ECU.

regards

Andy

Hmm...

[WR1 Bro]

I got in touch with Andy regarding a few things, and got this information back :

Hi Neil

Your car is producing better torque than standard, its just that there is even more available with the right set up.

I would recommend the 20G (£895+v) which is a direct bolt on and a fuel pressure regulator (£170+v) to cope with fuel supply.

Ideally an APS cold air kit in addition to the above would allow circa 380bhp and 350lbft of torque, this would still come in even earlier than your existing set up so would benefit your acceleration times.

The remap would be £190+vat as you already have the licence in the ECU.

regards

Andy

Hmm...

SOLD = Divorce!

[Scutch]

Yeah. I wouldnt like to try and explain this one to the girlfriend.

I think I'll bide my time and add bits on the sly, then get it all sorted in the year 2057. LOL

[Megaman]

hmm that sounds great mate...


it certainly pays if your going to mod to do them all at once and pay 1 remap fee instead of each time you add another little bit...

wonder how much it will cost to get up with the big boys at over 400bhp whilst maintaining reliability, not a droney noise and be useable on the trackc...

There must be a level when modding that you get to where it starts costing silly money for small amounts of power... its just pinpointing that which is my problem... it might cost 3000 notes to get up to 380bhp but then 5000 from 380-400 then 8000 from 400 to 420 etc... its finding that most economic stage really. by the looks of it 360 is quite achievable its when you get much over 380 to 400 where things start getting pushed to their limits... am i right?

[WR 1mposter]

400 is supposedly a safe limit the standard internals will take, but there are sti's out there hitting 480bhp doing tracks and sprints and have no issues.....yet

A basic 400 bhp mod list ; turbo, full decat system, headers, injectors, induction kit, fmic, remap. about £4/5k's depending on where you buy.