approx 400 BHP upgrades

[Azyman]

hi just some opinions would be appreciated
i am upgrading the WR1 i have been quoted these upgrades to get approx 400 bhp what you think and deos anyone have these


To get to approx. 400bhp with your WR1

Our 3â€

[danr55]

who's quoted?

I'd go for an some RCM bits personally, and the APS FMIC is always a good option

[Azyman]

who's quoted?

I'd go for an some RCM bits personally, and the APS FMIC is always a good option

powerstation quoted

[Azyman]

hi dan

i just looked at the aps FMIC it seems you dont have to chop the front about

deos the hyperflow fit in the same do you know ? or does that all need to be moded

Cheers
Geoff

i want to get it all done at the same place as it makes it easier to solve any problems that may happen

[WR1 Bro]

The APS requires a little "fettling" as Marky Mark would put it.

[dynamix]

That package should see you over 400 for sure although I would go with MD321H turbo

What is the base WR1 engine good for ?

[marky mark]

some hold together with more, but i would put a max limit of about 400 if you want to have some confidence in it.

APS you have to bend over the lower lip on the steel work in front of the cross member and chop the bumper out. Not much fettling really, they fit very well.

[jd]

What is the base WR1 engine good for ?

identical to the STi8 engine.

[dynamix]

So good for 450 tops if you are wanting to push your luck

[JP]

Not sure what more I could add to the good points given above. The only thing I would say is:

1) Get atleast three quotes with timelines and compare these to each other, and asking exactly why parts are being upgraded and effect of these etc. This way you know exactly what you are paying for and how it helps you get your power/torque; and

2) Find out what "Torque" you will get as no point getting 400bhp and having 320lbs torque!

3) Ask on each quote whether they will utilise the Prodrive ECU or will they recommed you upgrade on ECU.

[jd]

So good for 450 tops if you are wanting to push your luck

[marky mark]

So good for 450 tops if you are wanting to push your luck

Lets put it like this, i have done a few 'bolt on' conversions on classics / bro's WR1 that i am quite happy that the owner would not be back to me 2 months later holding as piston that's only use is an ashtray.

A couple of people have asked me to do 'bolt on' conversions wanting 450 BHP, and i simply won't do it. Far too risky if the owner does not look after it fastidously or do anything other than medium paced road work.

All IMHO of course, and there are many - including JD - who will take the risk and quite possibly be fine, and fair play to them but i could not build one for someone.

[jd]

there are alot more sti8 motors out there which are running perfectly well over the 400bhp and closer to the 450mark.

who is to say that 400bhp is the maximum for these engines?

[JP]

there are alot more sti8 motors out there which are running perfectly well over the 400bhp and closer to the 450mark.

who is to say that 400bhp is the maximum for these engines?

These motors running out there over 400 - 450 bhp.....what torque are these pushing out though on standard internals?

I understand it's pretty hard to get big torque with standard internals i.e. 2 litre straight block (unforged pistons etc) without increasing risk of damage?

Also there is a question of whether these cars running over 400bhp are using the original prodrive ECU and up to what stage will this ECU take before toppling?

All interesting stuff!

[marky mark]

there are alot more sti8 motors out there which are running perfectly well over the 400bhp and closer to the 450mark.

who is to say that 400bhp is the maximum for these engines?

No one can say what the maximum is , and i am certainly not. I am merely stating a level that i think you still stand a very good chance of it holding together. After that point (and the further over you go) then your chances are diminishing along a non exponential curve. As i also say, it very much depends on the use the car gets.

JHP - define big torque? Torque is very much boost related and if you have the mechanicals in there to take a big boost hike then torque will be good. It's perfectly possible with the proper turbo to be in the very high 300 ft'lb region @ 1.5 bar and have a car that will be 100% reliable under normal driving conditions.

What do you mean by ECU toppling? I know of a 500 BHP/440 ft'lb 2.0L classic than ran happily on Ecutek for a good while.

[jd]

dependant on which dyno was being used, mine has run 446bhp & 370+lb/ft on a Dyno Dynamics and 464bhp & 390+lb/ft at Powerstation.

[JP]

JHP - who that?

Mark - your points are very educational, especially about the ECU .

You say if the mechanicals are there to take a "big boost"? What in your eyes is a "big boost" - and will a good turbo alone do the job to achieve a higher torque or what other partners to the turbo are required? i.e. to achieve 400 bhp / 400 lbs torque as an example since this is what most wr1 owners are likely to aim for if they mod.

Is it true a laggy turbo will not assist in torque say in comparision to a non-laggy turbo which will spool up quicker say at lower revs?

JD - I understand that the DD rollers are more accurate than other rollers in the UK? Thereby, hence they tend to often give a "lower" (but more accurate) reading than other rollers. I wonder if this is purely to the way the computer set up (mathematical formulaes) is in the roller itself to work out the figs or something else?? I know cooling (fans), atmosphere, tyre pressure all play part but surely this would be immaterial??

[marky mark]

JHP - who that?

Mark - your points are very educational, especially about the ECU .

You say if the mechanicals are there to take a "big boost"? What in your eyes is a "big boost" - and will a good turbo alone do the job to achieve a higher torque or what other partners to the turbo are required? i.e. to achieve 400 bhp / 400 lbs torque as an example since this is what most wr1 owners are likely to aim for if they mod.

Is it true a laggy turbo will not assist in torque say in comparision to a non-laggy turbo which will spool up quicker say at lower revs?

JD - I understand that the DD rollers are more accurate than other rollers in the UK? Thereby, hence they tend to often give a "lower" (but more accurate) reading than other rollers. I wonder if this is purely to the way the computer set up (mathematical formulaes) is in the roller itself to work out the figs or something else?? I know cooling (fans), atmosphere, tyre pressure all play part but surely this would be immaterial??

Big boost - i am refferring to boost you will be ablr to run with a built engine i.e more than the 1.5/1.6 ish the standard motor can take on a regular basis.

Big torque numbers are no good if its not producing low down and does not start pulling until 4500 RPM...

As for dyno's, take them all with a pinch of salt, they are not accurate at all as they are not calibrated to a known horsepower standard, none of them are - so no one really knows which one is accurate.

The best you can hope for is consistency, which the DD ones seem to be as long as the car boosts as it does on the road. What they are useful for is a comparrison, i.e on a rolling road day you could be reasonably accurate in saying your car has X horsepower more than another. To say it has definitevly X horsepower is not possible. as they are not compared to a known standard.

They are all friggable if you like, dependoing on the numbers the operator uses and how he actually does the test, as well as tyre pressures etc...

[JP]

Thanks Mark

[WR1 Bro]

Thanks Mark

I see you are, like myself, well in on the Marky Mark fan club He is a God in my eyes.

[JP]

Thanks Mark

I see you are, like myself, well in on the Marky Mark fan club He is a God in my eyes.

Mark may hide in bushes in his spare time ....but one thing sure - he is damn knowledgeable and a helpful chap when it comes to WR1s, engines and mods.

He brings a different perspective to debates/topics adding additional flavour thus encouraging increased thought processes of scoob owners.

[WR1 Bro]

Someone told me that Marky Mark uses Zymol Atlantique on his forehead.

[dynamix]

JD - I understand that the DD rollers are more accurate than other rollers in the UK? Thereby, hence they tend to often give a "lower" (but more accurate) reading than other rollers. I wonder if this is purely to the way the computer set up (mathematical formulaes) is in the roller itself to work out the figs or something else?? I know cooling (fans), atmosphere, tyre pressure all play part but surely this would be immaterial??

One question on Dyno Dynamics rollers....

They measure WHP
They do that very well (they tell me)

Then they add a % to these to come up with flywheel figures.

Lets say... for example my car produces 400 whp and they calculate that back to 500 bhp at the flywheel.

I take my car away and blow the tyres up really hard and get the diff oil really hot and measure it again. It now shows 410 whp. Dyno Dynamics will say that I have created 512.5 bhp

Is that accurate?

Of course not.

They all have their issues but to go by one as being gospel is ridiculous, Dyno Dynamics uses a straight % to calculate flywheel figures, Dastek measures actually wheel losses so tyre pressures would be taken out of the equation.

At the end of the day, they are a tuning tool and guide. Use them as that or just make up whatever figures you want to use down the pub, no-one that you are talking to really cares anyway from my experience whether you have 340bhp or 356.4bhp - they are just numbers.

I take mine on the dyno to help the tuning process, it does help mapping to be able to fine tune out little dips or smooth areas out but I drive the car on the road and ultimately that is where it counts.

btw - a built engine gives you options. If you want to run 2.5 bar of boost you can. (it is VERY nice ) A std bottom end you are just asking for trouble the more and more you do as you get greedier and greedier.

[marky mark]

^^^^^ Top advice about dyno's ^^^^^

[Martynj]

One question on Dyno Dynamics rollers....

They measure WHP
They do that very well (they tell me)

Then they add a % to these to come up with flywheel figures.

Lets say... for example my car produces 400 whp and they calculate that back to 500 bhp at the flywheel.

I take my car away and blow the tyres up really hard and get the diff oil really hot and measure it again. It now shows 410 whp. Dyno Dynamics will say that I have created 512.5 bhp

Is that accurate?

Of course not.

And you would have only yourself to blame for your false figures , although gear and diff oil temps seem to make no difference on the DD dyno specifically because it doesn't measure wheel losses ..
We all know that it is just as important to warm an engine to correct operating temps as it is to keep the charge temps cool...
Now these can make a big difference to the figures...

They all have their issues but to go by one as being gospel is ridiculous, Dyno Dynamics uses a straight % to calculate flywheel figures, Dastek measures actually wheel losses so tyre pressures would be taken out of the equation.

And there in lies the problem , any hint of wheel spin during the run will inflate the figures , a slight dab on the brake on run down will increase the figures and so on and so forth...

At the end of the day, they are a tuning tool and guide. Use them as that or just make up whatever figures you want to use down the pub, no-one that you are talking to really cares anyway from my experience whether you have 340bhp or 356.4bhp - they are just numbers.

I take mine on the dyno to help the tuning process, it does help mapping to be able to fine tune out little dips or smooth areas out but I drive the car on the road and ultimately that is where it counts.

btw - a built engine gives you options. If you want to run 2.5 bar of boost you can. (it is VERY nice ) A std bottom end you are just asking for trouble the more and more you do as you get greedier and greedier.

And to the above I agree with everything you have said , I use a combination of the dyno and the road to arrive at the best map for the car in question..
Out of interest we recently helped map a TVR Britcar which the owners had tried mapping at 2 other establishments , one of which was a Dastek dyno..
They gave up due to being unable to hold the car on peak torque without lighting the tyres up and climbing out of the rollers and called us...
We popped it on our dyno , and just ran it held on peak torque of 550lbft like it was just another car...

[dynamix]

True - mine fought very hard to escape the dastek rollers (and won) until we strapped it down more

I am sure you understand I wasn't dissing DD as such Martin but to say one set of figures is more accurate than a.n.other is foolhardy IMO.

Interesting to note that on mine they came out at 0.7bhp difference in flywheel figures.